Ep. 2 Hudson Valley Kayak Killer

Podcast Intro

“He would lie his way into their dreams. He was looking for James Bond girls. How fun would that be to be a Bond girl? Then twist them into a nightmare. This guy’s done this before, he’ll do it again. Until a group of women banded together to put him behind bars and keep him there. You have to participate fiercely, fiercely in what happens next”.

I’m Keith Morrison and this is Murder in the Hollywood Hills, an all new podcast from Dateline. Listen to Murder in the Hollywood Hills for free each week or subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or datelinepremium.com to unlock new episodes one week early.”

 

Jerry: All right, ready? Yeah. Three, two, one. Pack your body bags, we’re going on a slay cation. Or as the cool kids under 30 say, a slay-kay.

Kim: Uh, they don’t say that.

Adam: That’s definitely not something anybody’s saying.

Jerry: They say vacay? No?

Adam: Yeah.

Kim: But not slay-kay.

Adam: I don’t think so.

Jerry: I know, but oh my god, do you guys know how a joke works?

Adam: I’m your co-host Adam Tex Davis. I’m joined by my lovely wife.

Jerry:  Jerry.

Kim: Kim.

 

Adam: My wives. I’m a polygamist. And we are here back with another slay cation, which is a murder that takes place on vacation. Today’s case, I guess it’s a very, I don’t know that much about it. I’m going to learn along with you, the listener. But I know that it also fits into that bucket of a vacation that was planned basically to commit a murder. It sounds like. And that’s kind of all I know. It’s a woman who kills her fiancé? Is that?

Kim: Yes.

Adam: Okay, great. Yeah, why don’t we just launch right into this one? What do you think?

Kim: All right. Well, let’s do this. All right. So this is an interesting case. This was a case that happened in New York. The protagonist, is that the right word?

Adam: Who are you referring to?

Kim: The murderess.

Adam: Let’s go with.

Kim: The murderess.

Adam: Well, I think we have to say in this case.

Jerry: Alleged is it?

Adam: No, not alleged. I think the correct term is the perpetrator.

Kim: Ah, better. Yeah. Perpetrator. I don’t think we can say.

Kim: Protagonist.

Adam: Or I also don’t think protagonist is necessarily the right word.

Jerry: They’re more the antagonist.

Kim: Well, anyway.

Adam: You could say the accused or the convicted or whatever you want.

Kim: Yes. So the accused is a woman by the name of Angelika Graswald.

Adam: Graswald? Yeah, it’s spelled G-R-A-S-W-A-L-D. We think it’s Graswald.

Kim: Yes.

Adam: But we’ll just say Angelika.

Kim: Yes. Sure. And her fiancé on a beautiful, or what started out as a beautiful April 19^th. On a beautiful day.

 

Jerry: Wait, wait, wait. Start again. All right. So wait, the protagonist is who?

Kim: No, not the protagonist.

Jerry:  I know. I’m kidding.

Kim: So Angelika Graswald and her fiancé Vincent Fiafor. Yeah. Okay. I think that’s the right. Anyway.

Adam: We can also just say. If you want to say Angelika and Vincent. Yeah. I don’t know how to pronounce their names either.

Kim: Yes. Okay. So on a beautiful day, or what started out as a beautiful day, Angelika and her betrothed Vincent decide that they’re going to go kayaking together.

Adam: Now they’re a couple.

Kim: Yes. In fact, Vincent is Angelika’s fiancé.

Adam: This is in June of 2015.

Kim: It’s actually in April. April.

Adam: And they’re due to be married in that summer.

Kim: Yes. So the couple decided to go kayaking across the Hudson River to an island. What’s it called? Bannerman’s.

Adam: I bet. Yeah. Bannerman’s island. Yes. What could go wrong? This is a trip that many families and people do all the time. It’s even a trip that’s run by rangers and they’ll take you over there and let you look at the island. It’s a cool little, there’s like the ruins of a castle. Right. On the island.

Jerry: So is this like rented kayaks or.

Kim: I don’t think they brought their own. Okay.

Adam: No, actually, I think they did bring their own.

Kim: Really?

Adam: Because of the missing piece.

Jerry: B-Y-O-K?

Kim: Well, maybe she just knew how to tamper with the. Okay. Well, let’s not worry about whether it’s their own or rented.

Jerry: We’ll talk about that later.

Kim: Right now.

Jerry: How dare you, sir? How dare I ask a question that can’t be answered. Asked and answered.

Kim: Yeah. So anyway, they go and, you know, they enjoy a lovely day together.

Adam: So they made it to the island. So yeah, they made it to the island and it was actually when they were returning, the river was cold, say about 48 degrees and the forecast had called for rain and they decided that they were fine with that anyway. They were ready to head back and.

Jerry: Why do kayaks not work in cold water or something or.

Kim: Well, it works, but.

Adam: Well, it’s also the rain. It’s going to be choppy and stormy and this particular part of the Hudson is. Can be a little tricky.

Jerry: Right. With currents and chop. And they’re not like, I mean, this is like they’re not avid kayakers or are they?

Adam: No, they’re they are kayakers.

Jerry: Okay.

Adam: They’re they do kayak, but we come to discover there. They had had some drinks. They don’t have they don’t have life vests on. So. Right. I know he didn’t have a life.

Kim: He didn’t have a life vest.

Adam: So they’re not they’re not like really geared up for like they didn’t like safety police check themselves.

Jerry: Right.

Adam: So they’re taking a little bit of a risk by kayaking back in the rain and the storm.

Jerry: Gotcha. Okay. So it’s not the ideal kayaking conditions.

Adam: No, it’s neither. It’s not ideal conditions. And they are not also appropriately outfitted for the weather.

Kim: 48 degree.

Jerry: Oh, I see. So like, okay, so it got colder and they’re like, yeah, and they’re not, you know, look, if you’re kayaking in a choppy, large river with currents, you should probably have a life vest on. Now, he didn’t have one or he wasn’t wearing it. He was he we don’t know whether he had one. He definitely was not wearing one.

Kim: Okay. No, he was not. He was not wearing one. He wasn’t wearing a wet suit. So he was vulnerable to hypothermia. Gotcha.

Jerry: If you fell in the water.

Kim: Right.

Jerry: And she was wearing a vest.

Adam: No, I don’t think she had a vest on either is my understanding.

Jerry: So they just didn’t bring vests.

Adam: I don’t know whether they brought them and didn’t wear them. They just didn’t. They weren’t wearing them.

Kim: Gotcha. Okay. Well, he definitely was not wearing one. Right.

Jerry: And because, I guess he falls in.

Kim: Well, he probably felt it’s a guy. We do this. Right. It is a guy. Yeah.

Jerry: Guy being stupid. I can relate.

Adam: Well, it’s also one of these spots because I actually know this spot. I was actually hiking right near it just a few days ago. It is a spot that doesn’t look like that big a deal. You know, the river is wide there. You can clearly see from one side of the river the other. The island is right in the middle. So if you’re being kind of macho, I got this about the whole thing. Right. You’re like, oh, whatever. Right.

Jerry: So that seems to be the case. Probably because I can swim and. Okay. So they go to the island. They have a little what a little picnic or something.

Kim: Yeah.

Jerry: They have some drinks.

Kim: A little romance, a little time together.

Jerry: Oh, what romance?

Kim:  Sounds kind of nice.

Jerry: All right. And then what happens?

Kim: So the couple was returning on that fateful evening to the western shore of the Hudson from Bannerman Island, several miles north of West Point. And the wind picks up and Vincent, who we’ve established, was not wearing a life jacket or a wetsuit. Fell into the water.

Jerry: Okay.

Kim: Or rather, the kayak capsized. Okay. And it was determined that.

Jerry: Well, wait, before you get into determining anything. So he’s in the water. Yes. And then what happens?

Kim: Well, she calls 911. From the kayak? Yes. On her cell phone.

Adam: She’s on her cell phone in her kayak.

Jerry: Wow. Okay. And says, my fiancé’s kayak has just capsized.

Adam: If you’d like to hear exactly what she says, I can play the call for you. Oh, sure. That’d be great.

 

Angelika’s Call

Police officer: Tell me exactly what happened.

Angelika: We are kayaking. My fiancé flipped over. He’s in the water right now.

Police officer: Does he have a life vest on?

Angelika: Yeah, he has something that he’s holding on to, but it’s getting very bad. I don’t see him anymore.

Police Officer: Angelika. Angelika, can you hear me? Angelika, are you still with me? Okay. Angelika, can you hear me? Angelika. Can you hear me?

[Call recording ends abruptly]

 

Adam: I’m going to play more of this call for you later, but that’s the initial call, right? So she’s in her kayak. She’s calling 911. She’s saying, my fiancé’s in the water. I can’t see him anymore. There’s more to this call, but we’re going to play a little bit later because there’s something very interesting about it that I want to talk about. So Kim, you want to pick up. So basically then, what happens?

Kim: Well, the kayak is taking on water and he essentially goes under.

Jerry: Now, kayak, you’re in the boat, right? Like, is he still in the boat? It’s just upside down? Or is it like he’s…

Adam: There wasn’t a witness to exactly what happened, but they think what happened was the kayak became unstable from taking on water. What happens with the kayak is as soon as water starts getting into the part where you are, it becomes unstable. The lower water becomes unstable, so capsized and he ends up in the water. Right.

Jerry: I’m just saying, like, is he still in your… Aren’t your legs like underneath that thing?

Adam: I don’t know. There’s different kinds of kayaks where you might be… Some you’re attached in, some you’re not.

Jerry: But he was free of the kayak?

Adam: He’s free. He’s in the water. All right.

Jerry: So he’s bobbing up and down, I guess, and floating away in the Hudson.

Adam: Yeah. She says she tried to reach him with the paddle. Right, right. But eyewitnesses say…Say otherwise.

Adam: Someone says that they saw her try and take his paddle away from him. Basically, he’s found down the river dead?

Jerry: Or what happened?

Kim: Well, they don’t find his body until months, a couple months later.

Jerry: Oh, so he’s taken. She goes to the… I guess she goes to the other side of the river, right? Now she’s out. Yeah. And then, what, the cops come? Yeah, pretty much. Okay.

Kim: And then they question her.

Jerry: Right.

Adam: Well, they don’t question her right away.

Kim: No, not immediately. So they… Well, they’re probably still looking for him at this point, right?

Adam: Well, they’re looking for him. Sadly, this is not an unusual thing to have happen in general. Kayaking is actually the main way that people die in sport boating or recreational boating, I guess you call it.

Kim: Right. Oh, I did not know that.

Adam: Yeah, it’s actually… Here, I have this actual statistic for you. Kayaks make about 100 million outings annually. It’s a lot. 54 people died nationally in kayaking accidents, drowning cited as the cause in 43, though. So it’s not in terms of the number of people that are kayaking. You have a very tiny percentage of this happening. But it is not unheard of, unless you go with Angelika.

Jerry: Right.

Adam: And initially…

Jerry: You have 100%.

Adam: So they were like, this is just a terrible accident. It happens, right? So she goes back to Bannerman’s Island, I think 10 days, eight or nine, 10 days later. And she’s talked to police, right? It’s because obviously they had questions. She’s met all the police investigating it. She thinks they understand it was a terrible accident. She goes back to the island to lay a wreath on the island in honor of Vincent. Right. And she sees the police on the island when she arrives in her boat, in her kayak. And she gets out and hugs them because she thinks that they’re there also to pay tribute. She’s no clue that she’s in any way a suspect. And they actually say, well, actually, could you come sit with us for a minute?

And she thinks they’re going to comfort her and talk to her. But they basically start questioning her.

Jerry: So this is just bad luck. She shows up on the island. There’s cops there. Or they were monitoring her.

Adam: Oh, okay. So they knew she was coming to the island that day. Because at this point, she actually is a suspect. She just doesn’t know it. Gotcha. So she’s like hugging the cops. She’s crying. And they sit her down and they start asking her questions. And she says something that will come back to haunt her over and over. And she repeats it throughout the interrogation, which is they say to her, how do you feel about all this? And she says, I understand he’s gone. And I’m actually happy about it.

Kim: She did say that.

Jerry: Kim, would you’ve said that.

Kim: No.

Jerry: About me.

Kim: No.

Jerry: Leaving a party, like when we left at my friend’s wedding and I was drunk. Right.

Adam: Like, yeah, I’m happy he’s gone.

Kim: And your friend felt like that too.

Jerry: Or like when you’re snoring really loudly. It’s looks like you get to leave the bedroom. I’m happy he’s gone.

Adam: I mean, look, we’ve all everyone listening to this show has had some point where your significant other, you’ve been in an argument or something and they leave the room, you’re like, I’m just happy they’re gone. And I have some space. I mean, we’ve all we’ve all felt that. But we don’t usually say that after the person is dead. And so she is saying to them. Right, because he’s gone, gone. He’s not gone.

Jerry: He didn’t leave the party.

Adam: No.

Jerry: He’s left the earth.

Adam: Right. For good.

Kim: Yeah. And she was very at peace with that. Very at peace.

Adam: So she’s yeah, she’s upset. But she’s also saying, I’m okay that he’s gone. And she says specifically, I wanted him dead. And now he’s gone. And I’m okay with that.

Jerry: Wait, I wanted him.

Adam: I wanted him dead. Okay

Jerry: Oh, that’s a thing you don’t say.

Adam: It’s generally a bad explanation.

Jerry: On a slay cation, a slay K or any K. That’s never okay.

Adam: And there’s also a life insurance policy of a little over half a million dollars.

Jerry: Always with the life insurance. Always with the life…

Adam: They’re not even married yet. Yeah. So here’s the thing. So they’re like, well, okay. So they interrogate her for a few hours and jump in, Kim, if I’m leaving anything out here. But they interrogate her for a few hours. And then they say, we’d actually like to take you in for more questioning.

Kim: Right.

Adam: Right. So they take her by boat to the police station in Orange County. And they proceed to interrogate her for, I think it was like 10 or 11 hours. Right. Right. On top of.

Kim: Right. But she finally admits it.

Adam: She admits that she took the plug. Right. One of the key things they find in this kayak is that the little plug that’s supposed to drain the water out of the kayak is gone. Oh, it’s like screwed up. You have to screw that out to remove it. It should be there. It’s not. That’s why I think these are kayaks they own, because she.

Kim: Right. So. Right, right, right.

Adam: So she’s like.7

Kim: So clearly tampered with.

Jerry: Yeah, but she could have unscrewed it on that island, right? Per se. Per se.

Adam: But she says, to Kim’s point, she says this thing has been out. I took it out. Now, it turns out it actually was taken out months earlier. She later says the cat was using it as a toy. Like so. And the kayaking experts are like that thing being out is not enough to have actually caused the kayak to fill with water. But the cops like really hone in on this. It’s really important to them for her to admit that she took this thing out. And so they interrogate her for like 11 hours and they tell her things like they say, like, this is like therapy. You can trust us. You can tell us anything. She doesn’t have a lawyer. Right.

Kim: And she’s not, this isn’t her home country.

Jerry: I was going to say, I wonder if there’s like a language thing.

Adam: She’s Latvian. Right.

Jerry: Right.

Kim: Was like originally Russia. Yeah.

Adam: She considers herself raised Russian. Right.

Jerry: So could some of these weird things that she said be chalked up to, like, I’m suddenly becoming a defense attorney. But like, could some of these weird things that she said, like actually be like a weird language thing?

Adam: Could be. Could be. But also, so I was curious because 11 hours. That’s a long time. So I actually looked up what is a typical interrogation.

Jerry: And unless you’re Hillary Clinton… targeted for 11 hours.

Adam: So I looked into this and there’s a guy named Saul Kasson, who is a professor of psychology at the Johnson College of Criminal Justice. He said that typical interrogations are 30 minutes to two hours. And that when they look into the research on when false confessions occur, they usually occur after eight hours. She was in there for 11 hours. Right. They asked her, Kim, can you talk to this a little bit when they asked her about why she was happy he was gone? What her explanation was as to why she would say something like that?

Kim: Didn’t sound like she was very happy in the relationship.

Adam: She said there was like some sexual cohesion.

Kim: Yeah, she felt that he was a little too interested in pornography. There’s pornography.

Jerry: And you can be too interested.

Kim: Yes.

Jerry: Well, interesting.

Kim: Yes. Yes. She didn’t appreciate.

Jerry: Okay.

Adam: She also said he was pressuring her into doing threesomes and being like the submissive in the relationship. And she’s like, I’m not submissive.

Jerry: So that’s… you got to keep your pornography separate from your life. You could like things in pornography and then there’s your life. And when you try to mix the two is when bad things happen.

Kim: It’s like either you’re going to enjoy it on your time alone. Yeah.

Adam: Don’t bother Kim with your… Don’t bring your porno fantasies.

Kim: I got to say you’ve been very good about that.

Jerry: Right.

Kim: Yeah.

Adam: With me too. Thank you.

Kim: Yeah.

Adam: Business for you.

Kim: I mean, even when I’m like, what are you watching? He’s like, this is not for you.

Jerry: Food porn. It’s just people eating really good sandwiches. Yeah. Delicious dinners.

Adam: So all of these are terrible things to say to the police. Right. If you’re saying I unscrewed the thing that was supposed to keep the water out of the boat. He’s dead. I’m happy about it. I’m happy because he was pressuring me into stuff I didn’t want to do like this all. It kind of sounds like you’re confessing to something.

Jerry: Yeah.

Kim: Telling on yourself. Definitely.

Jerry: Yeah. But like, was her goal to go to jail? Like, why would she do this?

Kim: Well, I think her goal, honestly, was.

Jerry: For them to see her side of it, maybe.

Kim: I think she felt like she could sort of talk her way out of it. There was that sense that she could. Right. Talk, like make the case why it’s okay.

Adam: Yeah. But there’s also, I mean, I’ll just throw out like an alternate, slightly alternate theory, which is that if you’re in a bad relationship, she’s engaged to this guy. Right. She’s from Latvia. She doesn’t have a lot of family here. So her family still. Yeah. So his family is her family. She had expressed some doubts about the marriage. She was having some doubts about it as well. The relationship was not in a good place. Right. So it’s like, which location bucket is this? Right. Is it the ‘I’m going to go kayaking and kill my fiancé’ bucket? Right. Or is it the opportunity? I’m out. What if it’s the ‘I’m out kayaking and he died in a terrible accident that I had nothing to do with, but I’m actually happy it happened’ bucket. Right. Right. Because that’s that is a sub bucket of the.

Kim: That is a sub bucket. Yeah.

Adam: It’s just a murder on vacation. And then you’re not from this country. You don’t have a lawyer and the cops are asking you all kinds of questions for 12, 13, 14 hours. And you start telling them the truth. I wasn’t happy. I’m glad he’s gone. All this stuff. Stuff you might say to a girlfriend over a drink. Probably shouldn’t be saying to the cops.

Jerry: Pro tip. Always get a lawyer. Say nothing except I need to talk to my lawyer.

Adam: That is actually 100% great pro tip. Never speak to the police without a lawyer.

Jerry: Thank you for confirming my pro tip.

Adam: Really? No, no, I’m confirming. No, I mean, that’s true. Whether you’re getting arrested for murder, whether you’re at a protest and get picked up and just get me a lawyer.

Jerry: Say nothing. There’s a great YouTube video. Like these lawyers are just like, shut the fuck up. That’s all you have to do. If the cops grab you. Shut the fuck up. I think Michael Rappaport’s part of it and he’s joining in. Shut the fuck up. It’s just shut the fuck up.

Adam: Especially when the cops are like, we’re your therapy. We’re your friends. You can trust us. Dude, no, they are absolutely. They’re not your friend. They’re not your friend. They’re there to incriminate you.

Kim: They’re manipulating.

Jerry: We respect the law enforcement. We’re not saying that they’re. No, it’s their job.

Adam: Their job. The job of law enforcement.

Kim: They don’t have to tell you the truth.

Adam: No, they don’t have to tell you the truth. And their job is to put away criminals.

Kim: Right.

Adam: And so the second that you are in custody of police, whether you realize it or not, you’re a suspect. So they’re doing their job. She was just yammering away.

Jerry: Yeah. Sounds like she fell right into a trap. Yeah. But here’s the question. She went back to the island to lay the wreath. Why was she already a suspect? What made them think that she had something to do with it at that point?

Adam: The missing screw thing from the kayak.

Jerry: Okay. So when they found the kayak, they’re like, it’s missing a plug. And they’re like, hmm, she probably took the plug. Yeah. Okay.

Adam: And the life insurance thing played into it.

 

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I’m Keith Morrison, and this is Murder in the Hollywood Hills, an all new podcast from Dateline. Listen to Murder in the Hollywood Hills for free each week, or subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or datelinepremium.com to unlock new episodes one week early.

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Podcast Continues

Adam: This case is so interesting to me because it touches on a lot of stuff that’s really, I think, screwed up in our country. So she didn’t behave the way that she was supposed to behave. So she went to a memorial service for him a few nights later, and at the bar, she got on karaoke and sang the Hotel California.

Jerry: Okay.

Adam: She did…

Kim: You just don’t do that.

Adam: No. You know, whether…

Jerry: It could have been worse. She could have sang The Wind Beneath My Wigs. I don’t know. What would be… Come Sail Away.

Adam: Yeah, sailing. Any water-related song. Poor Judgment. But Poor Judgment, or even whether it’s Poor Judgment, that’s how she expressed her emotion, whatever. She also, while she was in interrogation, she was doing cartwheels and yoga.

Kim: And stretches.

Adam: Stretches, which she said she was just there for so long, she had to move. Now, if you remember…

Jerry: Reminds me of a famous case.

Adam: You remember Miss Amanda Knox, who we had the pleasure of working with on a project a few years ago.

Kim: Oh, that’s right.

Adam: So Amanda was accused of not behaving the way she was supposed to because she was doing splits or cartwheels during the interrogation. And she was like, I was sitting for hours. I’m trying to stretch. So there was an article in Elle magazine about Angelika, where the whole article is about how when certain kind of women, specifically attractive white women, are accused of crimes, they become celebrities because people get so excited. Like, oh, well, look, this person doesn’t look like… Right. And then there’s an expectation for them to behave a certain way.

Jerry: Right.

Adam: And when they don’t behave that way, they are assumed to be guilty. This is also true for people of color, that there’s biases in terms of how you’re expected to behave. There’s an instant like, oh, she did this or they did this. So therefore, they’re guilty.

Kim: Right. And she did not fall in line with what is expected of somebody that is guilty.

Adam: No. So she even posted photos of herself. I mean, again, whether it’s poor judgment or not, whatever you want to call it, she posted pictures of herself doing yoga poses by the river. And she was like, because everyone kept asking, are you okay? And she’s like, I was trying to let them know I am okay, but I wasn’t okay. And Amanda actually said the same thing after her situation that she was just in this surreal phase where you’re like, what’s happening? So there’s an alternate version of this story where it was just an accident.

Jerry: Right. I guess it could have been, right?

Kim: Yeah. Yeah.

Jerry: But the plug was missing.

Adam: Yeah, but she says that they took it out together. She’s like, I don’t remember when, but we gave it to our cat for toy. Right.

Jerry: So the plug was never in the boat.

Adam: It was never got to the island without the plug. The plug was never in the boat.

Jerry: Interesting.

Kim: But the weather changed.

Adam and

Jerry: The weather changed.

Adam: Yeah.

Jerry: The joke I never made was that I realized is when we said the pornography that he was into water sports. And ultimately,

Kim: You’re disgusting.

Jerry: And ultimately, that’s what did. Just so we’re just going to edit that somewhere.

Adam: You can leave it right there. Perfect spot for it.

Kim: I think after she was out of jail, she had done a cover in a magazine, where there was her with this bizarre bathtub.

Adam: Yeah.

Kim: Which is very strange.

Adam: She was a photo of her.

Kim: She was just strange.

Adam: Her face was just submerged under the water.

Kim: Yeah

Jerry: Oh, that she took herself.

Adam: No, the Elle magazine.

Kim: Yeah.

Jerry: So the photographer’s like, I got an idea.

Adam: This won’t go over badly at all.

Jerry: Yeah. I’m helping. I’m helping. Wow. Sounds like everybody’s insane. All right. So okay, so she’s very pretty. I think all Angelika’s…

Adam: With a K, by the way. So definitely.

Jerry: Right. All Angelika’s are pretty or Angelika. Was it Angelika or Angelika? Because on the call, I guess they were saying Angelika.

Adam: That’s a good question. I don’t know. All right.

Jerry: I’m surprised she didn’t correct them on the call.

Adam: It’s Angelika. So here’s one interesting statistic for you about this whole thing. So when wrongful convictions occur with women in 64% of the cases, it’s not only that there was a wrongful conviction, but there was never a crime.

Kim: Oh, really.

Adam: So they’re convicted in cases where there was an accident or a suicide or something like that, compared to 23% of the time with men. Huh. That’s interesting.

Kim: That’s interesting.

Adam: So don’t be in the wrong place at the wrong time, Kim.

Kim: I’m going to try not to be.

Jerry: So what do you think, honey?

Kim: Well, you know, they found the plug in her car.

Jerry: Yeah.

Kim: So I think.

Jerry: Not in the cat’s mouth.

Kim: Not in the cat’s mouth.

Jerry: Interesting. The cat was not in the car.

Kim: The cat was not in the car.

Jerry: They found the plug in the car. And this is how long after, like right after?

Kim: Not long after.

Jerry: But like she had already left the scene.

Kim: Yeah.

Jerry: Man, people are stupid. Like if the whole thing is… I mean, look, maybe she is innocent. I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know if she pulled the plug out. You’d think that the plug would be a very important piece of this. I would probably get rid of it.

Adam: Kim, what do you? What’s your sense of this? Do you think?

Kim: No, I think that she was planning on killing him or rather planning on this, on staging this accident and that she would solve a problem by having him dead, because she so clearly wanted him dead. And I think she saw not for whatever reason, she didn’t see ending the relationship as an option. She didn’t see that she could walk away as a viable solution. And she would gain financially if he were to die.

Adam: She did, because she wasn’t found guilty of murder. She pled to a lesser charge.

Jerry: Like a manslaughter…

Adam: criminally negligent homicide. Meaning, she …

Kim: She spent a lot of time in jail.

Adam: like two years and she collected on the insurance.

Jerry: So they never made it give her back or they never made her give it back.

Adam: The plug?

Jerry: The plug for the insurance money. She used the money to buy like 84 plugs.

Adam: No, she doesn’t have to give it back because she wasn’t found guilty of murder. Criminally negligent homicide means that basically they’re saying you knew the plug wasn’t there, you knew he didn’t have a life vest on, and yet you went out in the bad weather anyways.

Jerry:  Right, but that’s both of their decisions.

Kim: Well, I mean, yeah, but certainly she knew.

Jerry: Right, but I mean, why does she got to be a kayak? Yeah, but so did he, you know? Or are we saying that he had no idea? I mean

Adam: No, he took a risk. I think he took a…

Jerry: Yeah, he wasn’t wearing a life vest, like she didn’t make him take his vest off or something. You take vest off now.

Adam: So, so the same exact thing happened in the same river in the same year to another couple.

Kim: Really?

Adam: The model Ian Jones, who was a young… Right. …up and coming model. And he was kayaking with Tali Lennox, who was Annie Lennox’s daughter. They’ve been up all night, not drinking. He was sober, but they had been up all night. They decided to go out on a kayak right in the same general vicinity in the Hudson. And they got caught in a current. And I think she was struggling and he tried to help her. He was wearing all of his party clothes, no life vest, and just tragically drowned.

Jerry: So he drowned?

Adam: He drowned.

Kim: But that wasn’t… they deemed that an accident?.

Adam: It was 100% an accident. It was a horrible accident. Yeah, it was terrible. It was just a thing where they got caught in a current they weren’t expecting. And there was never any question about whether it was an accident or anything else, because it was clearly just a terrible tragedy.

Jerry: That happened after this one?

Adam: I don’t know whether it happened after or before, but it was…

Jerry: I mean, I assume if it happened after, that would help the first case. See? See? This happens. What is with the dudes not wearing the life vest?

Adam: Yeah, that’s another pro tip. Wear your damn life vest. I mean, if you’re in anything that remotely has a current or something you’re not familiar with, wear a life vest.

Kim: You’re a great swimmer? Wear a life vest.

Adam: Yeah, you’re not that great a swimmer.

Jerry: Right. I mean, her attitude, I don’t know, it’s like she’s Russian, right? It’s like, oh, it’s almost like the Ivan Drago. If he dies, he dies.

Adam: She actually says this?.

Jerry: What?

Kim: That’s exactly what she says. Yeah, I mean, she does.

Jerry: She said she’s Ivan Drago?

Kim: No, she didn’t say… It was very much the attitude of, well, this is what happened. I have no regrets, in a sense.

Jerry: Right. It’s God’s will.

Adam: And she said, I’m Russian, and Russian women are not raised to be emotional.

Jerry: Yeah, I’ve known a few Russian people that, yeah, emotion is not their strongest attribute. That’s the stereotype, right? Of the cold Russian woman. And look, she might, yeah, maybe she did want this guy out of the picture. But did she manipulate all the things to make that happen? No. You started to say something earlier about a paddle.

Kim: Well, she had taken the paddle. From him. When he was struggling, clearly.

Adam: Right. There was one eyewitness who saw, they claim that she took the paddle from him.

Jerry: What do you mean, she took the paddle?

Adam: That he was floating with his paddle, and that she took it from him. Right. But she says…

Kim: She gave him the paddle.

Adam: So I want to play you guys the rest of this call. Because I don’t know. I’m on the fence on this. I just don’t think… She doesn’t sound like someone who is happy that her fiancé is drowning. Right. So here’s… Okay.

 

Angelika’s call continues

[Inaudible 00:33:50]

Police officer: It was something that helped him float.

Angelika: Oh my god.

Police officer: Can you make your way over to the fold.

Angelika: Yes.

Police officer: Start paddling towards that way, okay.

Angelika: I’m not worried about myself , I’m worried about him.

Police officer: No, I understand.

Angelika: Okay, I see the fold.

Police officer: You can put the phone down, don’t hang up on me.

Angelika: Okay okay…

[Call ends]

 

Jerry: Yeah, either she’s a really good actress or…

Kim: Well, you know what? I think you can tap into those. I think she tapped into those feelings of, oh shit, this is real. Right.

Jerry: Oh my God. You feel strongly that she was somehow part of this.

Kim: I feel that she was ready for him to go. It just felt like that she wanted this to end. And this was what she was going to do to facilitate that. I do think that when it happened, I think It was an oh shit moment. And I think just her personality just kind of reads to me that it’s like, I can feel sad that he’s gone, but I’m okay with it.

Jerry: And all right, moving on. I will confess, I knew a little bit about this case. I don’t know why it did make the news. I mean, it’s probably to your point, Jerry, about pretty white girl involved. It did make the news to the point. But it’s like… I don’t feel it got a lot of coverage. It got enough that I saw it. And the point is that the coverage was skewed in a way that it felt like she absolutely was guilty, that there was enough pieces. Oh, the boat had been tampered with. She knocked the paddle or she pulled the paddle away from him while he was trying to… At every turn, she caused more mayhem and death. So to hear that it could go the other way is, ah, it’s kind of interesting, disheartening. I don’t know. I mean, you’d hate to think there’s an innocent person, but at the same time… Yeah, I don’t know that I think… You don’t think she’s innocent?

Kim:  No.

Jerry: Okay.

Kim: No. Does she admit? I mean, she admits it, and she doesn’t admit it as this tragic accident.

Jerry: When you say she admits it, what is the it?

Kim: Well, she admits that she wanted him to die.

Adam: Right. But wanting someone to die and causing them to die are different. Because then my mother would be dead.

[Laughter]

Adam: No. Well, you know, and he…

Kim: We’re just kidding.

Jerry: We may or may not edit that line out.

Adam: Yeah, so he was… We could talk about Vinny a little bit. So the victim in this case, or Vinny, who passed away, he had one sister, one sibling, a woman named Laura. He was one of these just big personalities that everybody loved. He was a real family man. He was at every holiday. He was very close to his brother-in-law, Laura’s husband, Kevin. And he was an uncle to two kids.

Jerry: What did he do? You know.

Adam: I couldn’t find that.

Jerry: How did they meet? Was it like something weird?

Adam: So she was a waitress at a restaurant in Fishkill.

Jerry: Okay.

Adam: And Laura and Kevin were having dinner with Vinny. And they met her when she was waitressing.

Jerry: Fishkill.

Adam: She moved into his condo in Poughkeepsie. And they were engaged in a few months. Anyways, yeah, so he’s a good guy. He’s a family man, center of his friends and family. And his family has really tried to make peace with it and move on, right? Is that what you’ve got? That was sort of the impression I got was like…

Kim: This was horrible. Horrible. Let’s… Yeah.

Jerry: So they’re not that interested in going after her? Or they’re just like, whatever happens, happens?

Kim: I think they’re angry at her. But…

Jerry: You get the sense that they blame her?

Kim: What do you think, Jerry? I didn’t get the sense. I think they do blame her. But I didn’t get the sense that there was this outrage.

Jerry: Right. If he was wearing a life vest, would he have lived?

Adam: Absolutely. Right. Yeah. He would have just… He would have been fine. In fact, the prosecutors, when they make the whole case against her, the defense is basically that he had a slightly elevated blood alcohol level. And that he wasn’t wearing a life vest. And that removing this particular plug thing from the kayak would not be enough to cause it to capsize and kill someone.

Jerry: All right. So that’s a question. If they felt it wouldn’t capsize without the plug, then why did it capsize? Like, they think he did ”t himself? Because of the storm.

Adam: The storm, the storm. It was choppy.

Jerry: But how come she was able to navigate that?

Adam: She says she just… She actually says she feels like she just got lucky and survived. Yeah.

Kim: But it feels like, too, it’s the perfect storm of things to go wrong for him. Not wearing the life jacket, the storm, and the drain.

Adam: Right. Well, and that’s what the charge is, really. What she pleads to, right, is because they tell her, you’re going to go to trial for murder, or you can take a lesser plea of criminally negligent homicide, which is basically admitting to, I knew the plug wasn’t there. I knew he wasn’t wearing a life vest. So I’m criminally negligent. Right. So she’s taking on, by copping to that plea, she’s taking on responsibility for the death, but not saying, I killed him. And she says she did that because she was like, I don’t want to go to trial for murder. Yeah. Because I’m probably going to get found guilty of it based on everyone’s obsession with this plug. And in fact, the judge, did you read that the judge at the sentencing basically said, like, you remove this plug and you killed him and you’re lucky, you know. And then the coroner did a very strange thing, is they put cause of death on the report was drowning caused by removal of plug from boat by other person.

Kim: Oh my God, that’s right.

Adam: Which is like, you never see anything like that on a coroner. Yeah. I didn’t know you had enough space to write that. It’s really odd.

Jerry: I was going to say, like, I feel terrible for like, if every time some asshole dude doesn’t put on his life vest and gets hurt, like that his girlfriend or wife or whoever, the significant other has to get charged for that.

Adam: Well, no, if she hadn’t said stuff like, I wanted him dead and now I’m happy he’s gone. Or this is what I wanted and I’m happy and I’m at peace with it. Like, those are the things that get you put in the spotlight with the cops. Right.

Jerry: I guess. I mean,

Kim: Could potentially raise their attention.

Jerry: Couldn’t any defense lawyer be like, she is not great at this English and she says weird things that don’t make sense.

Kim: Well, at the end of the day, she really did not…

Jerry: Have a lawyer.

Kim: No, but she didn’t spend a lot of time. You know, she’s out.

Jerry: That is true, too.

Kim: I mean, she didn’t really spend a lot of time in jail. Right. And, you know, she’s been released. She’s in Elle magazine doing that strange photo.

Jerry: That’s an interesting, right? So, okay, so, right. You’re like, I’m the devil. Here’s the here’s the deal. Get rid of the guy, get the money, you get the magazine cover. You get a little bit of fame. Two years, two years, you know, or what is it? A year and a half, two years.

Kim: Well, she was sentenced to one to four years.

Jerry: And she only served what? One woman changed to. Yeah.

Adam: Okay, she got time served while she was on trial.

Jerry: So, you know, that Faustian bargain. I don’t know, man.

Adam: Like the family, the sense I got from the family stuff was that they aren’t 100 percent unsure on what happened. But the fact that she pled guilty to like there. Look, if it’s your brother or your kid and someone pleads guilty to criminal negligent homicide, you’re not doing a calculation of, well, they probably are innocent, but they were going to be found guilty. It’s like, oh, no, she pled guilty to that.

Kim: So she did.

Adam: She did it. So she did something wrong. She’s admitting some role in his death.

 

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Podcast Continues

Jerry: I don’t know, Kim. I didn’t get the feeling they feel certain that she necessarily murdered him and got off easy.

Kim: I think they’re conflicted. I think that they struggle with it. That was my sense.

Adam: Well, it’s hard, right? Because we like, we all have that thing where someone we love.

Kim: You don’t want to believe that somebody that you care about actually could hurt and kill somebody that you also care about.

Adam: Yeah. I mean, even on a small level, we’ve all had that thing with like, we’re friends with someone and they’re in an argument with their spouse who we also like. And you’re like, yeah, both of these sides seem bad.

Jerry: The good news is either way, it’s a slaycation.

Adam: Definitely a slaycation. All right. So what are the pro tips?

Kim: What’s the takeaway?

Jerry: Yeah. You know what? Go ahead. You introduce that segment.

Kim: Well, what is the takeaway, guys?

Adam: Well, as someone who does like kayaking, I don’t do it a lot, but I do it sometimes. I think it reminds me to wear my life vest. I actually would like to kayak to Bannerman’s Island at some point, and I will wear my life vest.

Jerry: And check for plugs.

Adams: I will check for plugs if I’m…

Jerry: On you and the boat.

Adam: Okay.

Jerry: What?

Adam: Not that kind of island. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Definitely. Okay. I would say, so takeaway for me is that I like doing, I was going to say water sports, but you’re going to make a joke about that.

Jerry: What could I possibly say?

Adam: I think takeaway for me is like, this is one of those cases that reminds you, like, if you’re going to go kayaking, which I like to do. I’m sure a lot of people listening to the show like kayaking. It’s easy to think, oh, I’m good. I’m strong. I’m a strong swimmer. No problem. But wear a life vest. Yeah. Wear a life vest, because whatever happened here, whether it was intentional, unintentional, if he’d had his life vest on, we wouldn’t be talking about him on this location. Right.

Jerry: Unless he died of hypothermia. Right.

Kim: Maybe wear a wetsuit. Maybe a wetsuit. Not a bad idea either.

Jerry: I mean, look, Kim and I, we went canoeing, and for 90% of the trip, it was very calm and very placid. And then all of a sudden, yeah, you hit some, you know, some rougher patch of a little, not rapids, but it was definitely bumpy. And it’s like, oh, shit, you know, and neither of us are boating people. I mean, we’re in a canoe together and this thing could, something could happen. So yeah, life vest. I’m going to go with my takeaway is shut the fuck up when you’re with the cops. Say nothing except I need to talk to my lawyer and then call a lawyer. It is funny when people say, like, I need to get, I need to talk to my lawyer. Like everybody just has a lawyer.

Adam: Like any lawyer.

Jerry: Yeah. But we’ve all seen the Salido and Barnes ads or whatever. You know, there’s got to be some way. But yeah, shut up. Get a lawyer. Don’t say anything to the cops. Yeah.

Kim: You know, I couldn’t really get a sense of what their relationship was. Could you, Jerry? I was like, do they love each other? Is he just into her because he’s attracted to her? Like what? I really couldn’t get a sense of what their relationship was.

Jerry: As a man. I mean, she’s hot. She’s the hot waitress. I’m not saying that’s all they had. But I mean, look again, you know, if she’s kind of foreign and kooky and whatever. Did he really connect to her that well on all that? But you said it was a short engagement. So it wasn’t like they knew each other a super long time. She’s probably hot. She probably satisfied some of his porn fantasies or whatever.

Adam: You are projecting so much. Oh my God. Kim, how do you deal with this?

Jerry: I’m just analyzing it. Yeah. I mean, even so, to murder him?

Kim: Well, you know, I guess that’s the thing. You know, I guess

Jerry: they can’t just break up?

Kim: Right

Jerry: They weren’t even married. They weren’t even married.

Kim: Well, no, they weren’t.

Jerry: She could have just broke up with him.

Kim: She could have just broken up with him. But she had life insurance.

Jerry: Oh, so how much did she get?

Kim: Was it 250,000? I think, it was 250,000.

Jerry: It’s not like a ton.

Adam: It was hundreds of thousands.

Kim: Right, I mean, the thing is that, it depends on who you are, though. I mean, that may seem like …

Adam: It was half a million.

Jerry: For a Russian girl, that’s like a weekend.

Kim: Well, you don’t know. I mean, it could mean a lot of money. No, I know it’s all subjective.

Jerry: Right. It’s funny because I watch a lot of these like crime movies from the ‘40s and ‘50s. So like $500,000 is like the heist of the century.

Adam: All right. Now it’s like nothing. It’s like, really? Well, I mean, it’s something, but it’s not worth going to.

Jerry: Well, 2 years… You made 250,000 a year. So I don’t know, Kim. I mean, they definitely had like it seems like they had a little bit of an on and off again. But, you know, lots of people do. That doesn’t mean you don’t love each other.

Kim: And yeah, that’s true. That’s true, I guess, because in other slaycations, I feel like I feel like the person kind of knows like, hmm, you know what? I don’t fully trust this person.

Adam: Right. And in this particular slaycation, I just don’t know if there was, it didn’t feel like he would have in a million years thought that this could have happened. No, and neither did any of the friends and family were all like, exactly. Like, yeah, they had some fights and stuff, but this was really out of the blue.

Kim: Right.

Adam: The one thing that his brother, his brother in law said was it was the first time that they’d gone kayaking across the Hudson. Right. Because Vinny always said it was too dangerous because it’s not a super wide area, but there are like some pretty strong currents in the middle and it can be quite dangerous. So that was the only thing out of the ordinary. Right. Really.

Jerry: I was going to say, if Kim ever asked me to go kayaking, I’m going to shit my pants. Specifically in the Hudson River. Anyway.7

Kim: I mean, you know something’s wrong because I’m not trying to be kayaking.

Adam: Right. Exactly. That’s not your jam.

Kim: No, no, it’s not my jam. That right there is a red flag.

Jerry: Right. I’m always pay attention to the red flags.

Adam: I’m trying to picture the two of you kayaking and it’s not happening.

Jerry: Canoeing.

Adam: Okay, canoeing. I can see canoeing.

Kim: I don’t know. I can’t. The rushing water. I mean, I think of I guess, I’m thinking of whitewater.

Adam: That’s different. I mean, that’s whitewater. You can go whitewater kayaking.

Jerry: You have been canoeing, when we went canoeing, you like that.

Kim: Yeah, but I don’t know if I would do it again, though.

Jerry: Really?

Kim: Yeah, I don’t know.

Adam: You mean because of this case?

Kim: Just in general. Okay. Because I don’t swim.

Jerry: It’s true. Kim actually does not swim.

Kim: I don’t.

Jerry: I mean, she swims better than me

Adam: Because Gia, Gia’s a swimmer.

Jerry: Yeah, well, because Kim was like, don’t be like me. Yeah, our daughter. My wife made our daughter become like a champion swimmer. Almost.

Adam: Are you interested in learning how to swim?

Kim: Interesting. You should ask because my sister lessons. Okay, my sister started with swim lessons.

Adam: Oh, cool. All right.

Kim: So I’m intrigued. I don’t know if I’m going to.

Jerry: It’s funny, too, because your sister just asked me to go kayaking.

Kim: No, she didn’t, stop playing. All right.

Adam: Well, so, yeah, good takeaway. Did Kim, did you have takeaway?

Kim: You know, my takeaway really is, I don’t know what my takeaway with this is, because I would say, well, trust your Instincts. And I didn’t really feel like there was anything really going on with this couple, per se, that that Vincent, for example, would have would have taken as a cue. Like maybe we just have brunch today.

Jerry: Don’t get engaged to the waitress after five months.

Kim: I guess the takeaway could be, girl, just break up. Break up. Just say this isn’t working. You want different things than I do. I’m not trying to be part of a threesome. I’m not trying to watch Pornhub with you.

Jerry: I feel like you’re directing all of this at Adam.

Adam: I’m not trying to watch Pornhub with you either.

Kim: He isn’t actually.

Jerry: Just for the record. It’s a solo activity.

Adam: Okay, so takeaway. Take away.

 

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So this is Dr. Grande, the host of True Crime, Psychology and Personality. On my podcast, I explore and explain the pathology behind some of the most horrendous crimes and those who commit them. We discuss topics like narcissism, psychopathy, sociopathy and antisocial personality disorder from a scientifically informed perspective.

What is a narcissist? How do you spot a sociopath? What signs can you look for to protect yourself from these dangerous personalities? It’s not just about the stories, but also the science and psychology behind them. So if you’re interested in true crime or mental health, I’d encourage you to give my show a listen wherever you get podcasts.

 

Podcast Continues

Adam: Takeaway is, were your Life vest, don’t talk to fucking cops

Kim: and think about your choices. Make a good choice.

Adam: Were your life vest, make your choices. That is actually a good point.

Jerry: Yeah, for him or for her though.

Kim: both

Adam: Well, yeah. Like all these things, these are all just results of just bad choices. Yeah. Really bad choices.

Kim: Yes. And now somebody’s missing a loved one.

Adam: Yeah. Super sad. You know, these kids don’t have their uncle and the brother, you know, it’s just it sucks. The other thing I would say is stop expecting or demanding that women act a certain way when they’re grieving, because that’s an issue also with people like, oh, she wasn’t acting.

Jerry: Right. In the old days, like all you had to do is put on that black hat with the little net over your face.

Adam: You can do cartwheels and it’s fine.

Jerry: You can do whatever because you have the morning hat, you know. Look, they’re wearing the black hat.

Kim: Oh, they’ve got the morning hat. The veil. It’s okay.

Jerry: Right. It’s cool. She gets it.

Adam: She’s doing yoga poses by the river, but she’s wearing her morning hat. So it’s cool.

Jerry: And it’s like you have to wear it for a certain amount of time if you take it off one minute too soon, like, oh, but we’re doing that.

Adam: But like that is kind of there’s this cultural baked in assumption that women are supposed to mourn in a certain way and be wearing all black. If someone’s grieving process includes doing yoga poses or cartwheels or singing like that, I’m not saying one way or the other that she’s about this person, but this has come up over and over. Let people grieve the way they have to grieve.

Jerry: Right. The problem is there’s an expression like, you know, like if something happened to me and Kim was doing cartwheels, cartwheels is associated with like, I’m very happy. Fair enough. Right. So I would stay away from cartwheels.

Adam: Okay, stay away from, that’s also takeaway. Don’t talk to the cops, get a lawyer, wear a life vest, make good choices and just don’t do cartwheels when you’re supposed to be sad.

Jerry: Unless you’re a gymnast and like, that’s part of your thing and you just do it all the time.

Adam: She actually did a cartwheel to present the missing plug to the cops. Right. It was really.

Jerry: Here’s the pedal. All right. Well, that concludes another exciting episode of Slaycation. And we will be back with more fun episodes and murder and travel. And why are you looking at me? You just waited for me to run out of steam. Because you’re just saying words.

Adam: How many more words are you going to say?

Jerry: I don’t know. All right. Thanks for listening, everybody. Stay safe out there, wear your life vest. Stay safe.

 

Commercials

Hey, it’s Adam with a new true crime podcast. I think you’re going to like a lot. It’s one I’m actually looking forward to. It’s called The Burden. And it’s from Orbit Media who brought you the number one hit Empire on Blood.

Anyway, The Burden tells the story of Detective Lewis Scarella, once celebrated for solving the toughest cases in New York City in the 90s. But things took a turn when a group of convicted murderers, all claiming to be innocent, became jailhouse lawyers and began investigating the investigator. Turns out they uncovered all kinds of issues with Detective Scarella’s involvement in dozens of cases, which led to the release of over 20 people he helped convict.

Not only that, the government had to pay out a record-breaking $150 million in wrongful conviction settlements, with more to come. The question is, can these potentially wrongfully convicted murderers get themselves released too? You have to listen to find out. The Burden, which also includes first-time interviews with Detective Scarella himself, is out now, with new episodes every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[End of Audio 00:59:10]